God's Purpose in Job's Suffering ...

[mattfivefour]

I've got a question, KBR. Why did God "test" Job? Why does he "test" anybody? After all, He knows us better than we know ourselves. In fact He knows us perfectly.

[Meg]

I've got a question, KBR. Why did God "test" Job? Why does he "test" anybody? After all, He knows us better than we know ourselves. In fact He knows us perfectly.

Job 2:1-8

1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

4 "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."

6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."

7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. 8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.

[GlennO]

Meg-

I'm going to hang my hat on what Adrian said:

Why does he "test" anybody? After all, He knows us better than we know ourselves. In fact He knows us perfectly.

and my last comment:

Regarding Job, The worship song Blessed Be Your Name the lyric "you give and take away, you give and take away, my heart will chose to say, Lord blessed be your Name!" says it all for me. He is our Awesome and Sovereign God. Job was selected to demonstrate this sovereignty to all generations. Job's life purpose was, and is, for this testimony (IMO).

What do you think?

YBIC
Glenn

[king'sbloomingrose]

Matt, it could possibly be because God knew Job's heart, but Satan did not nor did the rest of mankind. Could have been that God was trying to demonstrate Job before all that were watching to show them His power. Just a thought...

:) You guys sure have been busy on this thread yesterday.

[Meg]

Meg-

I'm going to hang my hat on what Adrian said:


and my last comment:



What do you think?

YBIC
Glenn

What do I think? I think Scripture is my refuge. I have suffered so deeply that I have twice asked the Lord to let me die. The first time, early in 2008, I begged Him to just let me die, told Him He didn't owe me and need not let me into His Heaven, because Hell couldn't be worse than what I was suffering. I was absolutely in the pits of self hatred at the time, and saw no benefit in my existence. Jesus Christ came back with Reuben Morgan's song Mighty To Save, that was His gentle "No", and His encouragement was the Reuben Morgan song Eagle's Wings. He placed this computer in my hands in August 2008, and at long last showed me what I could do to serve Him after years of Sanctification and study. I still dwell in a place of deep affliction, and early this year, again, I was utterly crushed. Just so wounded and broken down that i could stand it no longer... Again, He asked me to live and told me why. All I can say is that I get my renewal from the Holy Spirit which is utterly unprecedented in my entire life. Graybeard talked to me on the phone on the day I quit my job; his first question was "How are you doing", and I broke down and cried. He saw me with his own eyes a week later, and was amazed at the restoration that was quite evident. He has seen me pray as well, and can vouch for the genuineness of both my faith and my pain. What is hurting me? Dreams unwind (thx Stevie Nicks for those words...) I dreamed for 20 years of owning a house in the country; the home I found,, where I have lived for 10 years now, is more charming and more comfortable than I could have possibly hoped... The neighbor, however, is a screaming nightmare on steroids. Dreams unwind...

Satan makes devastating bets that if he tortures us enough that he can break our faith, that is the first lesson of Job. People doubt our integrity and blame us for our afflictions, that is the second lesson of Job. When your life falls apart, you will be blessed if even three friends come sit in the ashes with you, that is the third lesson of Job. God is faithful and true through it all. That is the fourth lesson of Job. There are many lessons in Job as there are in all Scripture. Not one Word in the Holy Bible is fodder for casual dismissal, of that I am absolutely certain. I have studied the Word Of God for over 6 1/2 years, and I am still discovering new depths of deeply resonant meaning in Its pages. From what I understand, no one has lived and served Jesus Christ so long that they never stop discovering new and resonant meanings in Scripture.

That is what I think.

[Meg]

They blew the first notes in this, but its the only copy on You Tube

[Meg]

Matt, it could possibly be because God knew Job's heart, but Satan did not nor did the rest of mankind. Could have been that God was trying to demonstrate Job before all that were watching to show them His power. Just a thought...

:) You guys sure have been busy on this thread yesterday.

I think you have the right of it, Rose.

[GlennO]

Rose-

I agree completely!! The synergy got us to best answer (IMO)

Glenn

[mattfivefour]

BTW, this thread has been separated out of the "Shepherd" thread. If I have brought any posts over erroneously, please let me know and I will return them.

[GlennO]

Meg-


Was Eagles Wings inspired by (Isa 40:31) but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint.

??
Glenn

[Robert]

I think a great deal of Job's suffering was due to the fact that the cheeseburger hadn't been invented in his time.

After all, no matter how bad your day is, it is never so bad that a good cheeseburger cannot make a difference

[Meg]

Meg-


Was Eagles Wings inspired by (Isa 40:31) but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint.

??
Glenn

*sorry Matt... *

KingsBloomingRose asked if it was Psalm 83 over in the Shepherd thread, and the reply I posted there answers your question as well, so I just copied it over to here (Matt, please see above )

That may be part of it, I don't have the CD any more, gave it away thinking I could replace it easily, only to not be able to find any copies anywhere online! I intend to contact Hillsong when I have money again. I do know that it was written as a prayer which came out of Mr Morgan's own personal afflictions, and that it is one of the most beautiful songs I have ever heard. It is a deep and effective prayer as well.

[micah719]

My internet is throttled again and very difficult to do anything other than watch pages fail loading, but I'll give it a go.....

Floyd Jones has an excellent series of tapes on Job, well worth listening to.

The Book of Job is jam-packed with goodies, but I'll try not to derail the thread...

The devil accused Job of only loving God because He prospered him. The implication is that God bribes people, and that God's love is not pure. An attack on the holy character of God Himself, and an attack on Job of whom The Lord said there were none righteous like him. God permitted the devil to attack Job, and evil defeats itself as usual: Job's friends get saved, Job learns why the righteous suffer, and God blesses Job twice as much as before; and there is a lot more packed into that old Book, such as dinosaurs, prophecy, the glory of God, the nature of false religions and the vanity of philosophy, and a look into the mind of the devil and the antichrist. Job was a son of Issachar, listed in Genesis 46, and likely wrote the Book of Job. Praise The Lord, and thank Him for the Scriptures! Maranatha!

[Robert]

If there is one thing I take away from the story of Job, it is this:

Job, having lost his children, house, crops, his wife telling him to "curse God and die", his three friends and a young man grilling him, convinced that he has sinned, and Satan behind it all licking his chops, preparing to move in for the kill, forgets all of this when God himself comes to Job in the whirlwind. In the presence of the Lord, all of Job's problems and troubles melted into insignificance as Job realized who he was standing before. Job placed his hand over his mouth and repented of the words he had spoken, because once he was before the whirlwind that god was in, he realized that everything he was going through was NOTHING in comparison to the majesty and absolute beauty of the Lord God. His claim that he had done nothing to deserve any of this fell short when, in comparison to the Lord, Job saw himself as less than a worm.


"The Lord said to Job: “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!” Then Job answered the Lord: “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. I spoke once, but I have no answer— twice, but I will say no more.” (Job 40, NIV)


When we suffer, we may ask "why", but knowing why will not relieve our pain or soother our hurt; it will not comfort our sorrow, nor can it ever. But the comforting arms of the Lord can and will. When someone is hurting, they want someone to suit down with them and know how they feel, indeed, we are told in scripture to "share one another's burdens" Job was asking "why" and so were his friends; Job wanted vindication, while his friends wanted a confession from Job. God silenced them all by declaring that his purposes are his own and that he has no need to explain himself to ANYONE. This doesn't mean god just ignores us when we ask, but he does note our attitudes when we do. if we ask honestly and without being flippant, he may tell us we aren't to know yet and just to trust him. But if we accuse, this is sin and God doesn't take having his sovereignty questioned very well.


In any event, the lesson is: the Lord is enough for us in all our sorrows. We need to be humble enough and trusting enough to commit our situations to him, and keep our eyes firmly fixed on the one who Purchased us. the same one who pulled Peter from the waters of the sea of Galilee and who calmed the wind and the waves of that sea...


...Jesus Christ.

[mattfivefour]

If there is one thing I take away from the story of Job, it is this:

Job, having lost his children, house, crops, his wife telling him to "curse God and die", his three friends and a young man grilling him, convinced that he has sinned, and Satan behind it all licking his chops, preparing to move in for the kill, forgets all of this when God himself comes to Job in the whirlwind. In the presence of the Lord, all of Job's problems and troubles melted into insignificance as Job realized who he was standing before. Job placed his hand over his mouth and repented of the words he had spoken, because once he was before the whirlwind that god was in, he realized that everything he was going through was NOTHING in comparison to the majesty and absolute beauty of the Lord God. His claim that he had done nothing to deserve any of this fell short when, in comparison to the Lord, Job saw himself as less than a worm.


"The Lord said to Job: “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!” Then Job answered the Lord: “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. I spoke once, but I have no answer— twice, but I will say no more.” (Job 40, NIV)


When we suffer, we may ask "why", but knowing why will not relieve our pain or soother our hurt; it will not comfort our sorrow, nor can it ever. But the comforting arms of the Lord can and will. When someone is hurting, they want someone to suit down with them and know how they feel, indeed, we are told in scripture to "share one another's burdens" Job was asking "why" and so were his friends; Job wanted vindication, while his friends wanted a confession from Job. God silenced them all by declaring that his purposes are his own and that he has no need to explain himself to ANYONE. This doesn't mean god just ignores us when we ask, but he does note our attitudes when we do. if we ask honestly and without being flippant, he may tell us we aren't to know yet and just to trust him. But if we accuse, this is sin and God doesn't take having his sovereignty questioned very well.


In any event, the lesson is: the Lord is enough for us in all our sorrows. We need to be humble enough and trusting enough to commit our situations to him, and keep our eyes firmly fixed on the one who Purchased us. the same one who pulled Peter from the waters of the sea of Galilee and who calmed the wind and the waves of that sea...


...Jesus Christ.

You are very close, Robert. Once I have finished staining my deck (over 500 square feet on two levels ... with railings held up by 1x1 rectangular spindles every 5 inches!!!) I will share what the Lord showed me about Job one day. Right now I am so tired I can't even think.

(I can hear Robert, Roberto, and a few others going " 'Can't think' ??? How could we tell the difference?"

[Robert]

I may be close, but somehow I think I missed the mark, which is what the word "sin" means. No matter how close we may get, we still miss the mark because of our fallen nature. The Lord has to give us new life, a new birth by being born again and cleansed in his precious blood.


BTW: doe this mean you got "decked", Adrian?

[jesuschangesall]

we get used to life down here....we start drifting from The Lord without even noticing...in fact we do not love Him they way we should...our frame is very fragile,we are but specks of dust, minuscule specks of dust on a big planet in a very big universe...but we get puffed up,when things go well we tend to forget The Lord Who is the only Reality and get so entangled in our selves...we become really puffed up...we become so self centered..it is all about me,my families,my dreams,my career,my aspirations,my money,my,my,my....me,me,me...and also my righteousness,I am holier than thou,all is due to me....the world owes me this and that...really?are we sure?
Always ready to judge others...always ready to seat on a seat that truly does not belong to us..but to Him...in fact,NOTHING belongs to us...our life is but a GIFT from Him....we did not choose to be born,did we?
we were born because He allowed it ...but we talk so much about "our" life....
we are really radically corrupted...but we do not believe it...
we tend to say,"altogether,after all,I am not so bad...may be I am not perfect..but not so bad,especially if we compare with other humans,we are always prone to justify ourselves,our sins,our shortcomings,our transgressions....are not we?
The Bible describes humans with very strong undeniable terms...not only it says that none is good but describes how rotten and sinful we all are...but we really do not believe it...our religious satanic spirit is at work continually trying to cover up and justify our wickedness and project a false image of ourselves...we are not so bad we say...when in reality we are all rotten to the very core of our being.....OTHERWISE...The ONLY TRULY RIGHTEOUS MAN in the entire history of man,The Lord Jesus Christ,Who happens to be GOD the SON,otherwise HE wouldnt have to die that infamous death on a Roman cross on a hill called Calvary....
But,even JESUS becomes in the mind of corrupted man,anything BUT GOD,and in fact,go around and ask people about Him,and see for yourself how distorted and wrong perception humanity has of Him,even among believers.
If He had to die that kind of death for us,if HE,the JUST ONE for the unjust ones,us,(me in primis)had to ask The Father 3 times IF the cup could be removed by Him,if there was another way to redeem us,and still HAD to go to the cross,and HE DID voluntarily and in TRUE LOVE ( a love that we cannot even remotely conceive,for His Father and for us)...well...I do not care what the professors of religion say....I know what HE SAYS and HE IS RIGHT...ALL THE TIME.....

Job,like me,like you,had to learn the lesson the hard way but he discovered that life after all was NOT about himself BUT about THE LORD and that The Lord is GOOD,not sometimes,but ALL THE TIME.
Easy for us to say that He is good when things go well,when blessings are on us and the right wind is on our sails.....
Easy...to thank and praise The Lord when prosperity and health are with us...
BUT not so easy when adversities,sickness,poverty,...you name it,come and linger and afflictions and depressions set in,when we start crying WHY?WHY ME?pity party pity party...
Oh yes ...we are corrupted...we are truly evil....we forget that according to His Holy Law we should be stoned,put to death,and finally end up in an eternal burning raging Hell...because that is the appropriate destination for the rebels,for the enemies of God,for us all,because we are rebels and live in rebellious world that we know is destined to taste the fiery and burning indignation of THE HOLY GOD!.
we do not even understand holiness....do we,when for example we call a mere mortal man like the pope "His Holiness"....wow,man,I feel so sick in the stomach...
what about the prophet Isaiah,who was a mighty prophet of The Lord? when He saw The Lord and His glory and Holiness was absolutely undone,was absolutely smashed by such a glory...because God is HOLY and nobody else is....
But Job forgot that,we forget that,I forget that...so job,us,me,we have to reminded WHO THE LORD IS in the book of Job and at the cross of Calvary...
so then,and only then,we can fall on our faces and worship in Spirit and Truth this MAGNIFICENT GOD and begin praising HIM that not only didnt kill us on the spot or consigned to the flames of Hell,BUT sent His Only Begotten Son,THE HOLY SON,JESUS to die in our places and RISE on the third day for our justification and even sent His HOLY SPIRIT to seal us for the day of redemption and has generously left 66 books for us to be guided,helped and instructed and encouraged UNTIL we reach the final destination,HIM,and to get there HE is carrying us,because without Him we couldnt stay 2 minutes saved,but we would really go back to our vomit lives like dogs.....

Heavy?Hard?not really....the truth...ONLY GOD IS GOOD,VERY VERY GOOD,Job had to learn that and i am still learning it,and like Paul I say,Who is sufficient to this things?
Only BY HIS GRACE,LOVE,GOODNESS and COMPASSION..it is not about us,friends,it is ALL ABOUT JESUS,and the best part is that because it is all abot HIM,we will be there with HIM for ETERNITY!!!!
Glory be to THE FATHER,THE SON and THE HOLY GHOST!
AMEN

[Longing2cJesus]

Having just read this thread I would like to say God Bless you, Adrian, Robert, jesuschangesall, micah719, GlennO for the exegesis on the Book of Job, one of the first Books of the Bible that I read as a new babe in Christ in 1983 and had so many lessons taught to me by the Holy Spirit that helped prepare me for my walk these past 27 years.

I feel like I just sat through some of the most Blessed preaching I have ever heard in reading your posts.

First and foremost I will say that you all pointed to JESUS, our LORD and SAVIOUR.

I have always seen Job as a witness to me as to how I should live in respect of God. Job was a man of great faith. Job would not back down nor compromise when it came to God. He suffered, but "trusted" that God would see him through. His wordly possessions were not his end all and be all. He lost family, friends, possessions............BUT.......NEVER took his eyes off God.

This one verse from Job has been so much a part of my being for all these many years walking with the LORD: [COLOR="red"][Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. /COLOR]

No matter what comes in life, sickness or death, Job "trusted" in the LORD.

jesuschangesall this is worth repeating

Job,like me,like you,had to learn the lesson the hard way but he discovered that life after all was NOT about himself BUT about THE LORD and that The Lord is GOOD,not sometimes,but ALL THE TIME.
Easy for us to say that He is good when things go well,when blessings are on us and the right wind is on our sails.....
Easy...to thank and praise The Lord when prosperity and health are with us...
BUT not so easy when adversities,sickness,poverty,...you name it,come and linger and afflictions and depressions set in,when we start crying WHY?WHY ME?pity party pity party...
Oh yes ...we are corrupted...we are truly evil....we forget that according to His Holy Law we should be stoned,put to death,and finally end up in an eternal burning raging Hell...because that is the appropriate destination for the rebels,for the enemies of God,for us all,because we are rebels and live in rebellious world that we know is destined to taste the fiery and burning indignation of THE HOLY GOD!.
we do not even understand holiness....do we,when for example we call a mere mortal man like the pope "His Holiness"....wow,man,I feel so sick in the stomach...
what about the prophet Isaiah,who was a mighty prophet of The Lord? when He saw The Lord and His glory and Holiness was absolutely undone,was absolutely smashed by such a glory...because God is HOLY and nobody else is....
But Job forgot that,we forget that,I forget that...so job,us,me,we have to reminded WHO THE LORD IS in the book of Job and at the cross of Calvary...
so then,and only then,we can fall on our faces and worship in Spirit and Truth this MAGNIFICENT GOD and begin praising HIM that not only didnt kill us on the spot or consigned to the flames of Hell,BUT sent His Only Begotten Son,THE HOLY SON,JESUS to die in our places and RISE on the third day for our justification and even sent His HOLY SPIRIT to seal us for the day of redemption and has generously left 66 books for us to be guided,helped and instructed and encouraged UNTIL we reach the final destination,HIM,and to get there HE is carrying us,because without Him we couldnt stay 2 minutes saved,but we would really go back to our vomit lives like dogs.....

Heavy?Hard?not really....the truth...ONLY GOD IS GOOD,VERY VERY GOOD,Job had to learn that and i am still learning it,and like Paul I say,Who is sufficient to this things?
Only BY HIS GRACE,LOVE,GOODNESS and COMPASSION..it is not about us,friends,it is ALL ABOUT JESUS,and the best part is that because it is all abot HIM,we will be there with HIM for ETERNITY!!!!
Glory be to THE FATHER,THE SON and THE HOLY GHOST!

I see Job as never compromising his belief and trust in God.

Like it says in Hbr 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Job being among the "great cloud of witnesses". What an example for us the Lord in His Word has Blessed us with.

Ann


PS: Adrian I do hope you don't paint yourself into a corner this weekend.

[Meg]

It has been a weekend of deep conversation with a treasured brother in Christ. One thing that came up in many hours of discussion was that we do not well understand God's perfect discipline. We didn't manage to figure that out either, I don't think, but we did get somewhere.

Between the rock of God is Love, and the hard place of affliction, there lies the Paradox Of Job. (thank You Lord for those words...) It seems to me that many people have the idea that God is very upset with our faults and failures -- or, very possibly the things we may do or not do which appear in our eyes to be failures. Fallen flesh wars with the Holy Spirit, this we know and experience on an all too regular basis; we're fully aware of this on an internal basis within ourselves. However, the war of fallen flesh and Holy Spirit wars among one Christian and another, and much worse between the fallen flesh of unbelievers and Spirit filled Christians. This unrecognized conflict is a root cause (but probably not the only one) of much trouble in the Christian experience. Furthermore, people judge one another based on our faults and mistakes. Not only do we (yes, we, I am as guilty as anyone else in this matter...) tend to zero in on the negative as the standard by which we form our opinions of one another. This is a defensive behavior upon which we depend, precisely because flesh wars with Spirit.

Jesus Christ, however, does not operate from a root of flesh, and He, of course, is without sin and always has been, so He, by His very nature does things very differently. Scripture tells us:

Isaiah 55:8

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

Psalm 92:5

5 How great are your works, O LORD,
how profound your thoughts!

His thoughts really are not my thoughts. How many times have I thanked Him for that!!!! I lost count, but I did it again today...

Jesus Christ really likes each and every one of us, OK. He really does think you are cool. When He looks at each and every one of us, He sees good things in each and every one of us as only He can, and He just delights in all that specialness. When He sees us drifting off into error, He does not stand there doing this number: He has absolutely never done that to me, not once. Yes, I have suffered the accusing thoughts, but I have never had the Holy Spirit do anything stronger than convict me in order to correct me for something.

Romans 8:1-2

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Although there is no condemnation in Christ, there is still the possibility for mistakes and misunderstandings. There is still plenty of room for error of course, it happens to absolutely everyone, no matter how anointed they may seem to be -- or not, all the time. Now what? Correction, of course, but not an angry, frustrated correction, no, not at all. Jesus Christ doesn't get upset over honest inability, He is waaaayyy too Holy for that. Now He does get upset over willful, deliberate disobedience, if He didn't, there would be no Judgement Seat Of Christ. However, if that was His only technique, Judgement would not be just, so what He does do is patiently repeat Himself until we get the hang of whatever He is trying to show us. I am now certain, because of this weekend's deep discussions with a very genuine Christian brother, that what I am describing is universal in the experience of every sincere Christian.

So how does all this tie into affliction and this thread on Job? Please note what Jesuschangesall has learned from experience:

we get used to life down here....we start drifting from The Lord without even noticing...in fact we do not love Him they way we should...our frame is very fragile,we are but specks of dust, minuscule specks of dust on a big planet in a very big universe...but we get puffed up,when things go well we tend to forget The Lord Who is the only Reality and get so entangled in our selves...we become really puffed up...we become so self centered..it is all about me,my families,my dreams,my career,my aspirations,my money,my,my,my....me,me,me...and also my righteousness,I am holier than thou,all is due to me....the world owes me this and that...really?are we sure?
Always ready to judge others...always ready to seat on a seat that truly does not belong to us..but to Him...in fact,NOTHING belongs to us...our life is but a GIFT from Him....we did not choose to be born,did we?
we were born because He allowed it ...but we talk so much about "our" life....
we are really radically corrupted...but we do not believe it...

Comfortable people simply don't need answers, they've got them. We only ask questions when something remains unresolved. God may possibly have provoked satan when He boasted about Job's faithfullness as contrasted to satan's blasphemous unfaithfullness... It kind of looks that way in Job 2... You see, God's boasting in Job 2:3 is actually an extremely high complement towards Job:

3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.

Yes, God just paid Job the highest possible compliment. In fact, God just expressed respect, yes r-e-s-p-e-c-t for His "servant Job". Before you go fishing for compliments from God Himself, though, you might want to soberly consider where that leads...

So the purpose of affliction is to create a need. A need of such magnitude that only God Himself can help, can heal, and through the paradox of suffering, show us what is right about us in His eyes. Its not easy. It is, in fact, crushing. Jesus Christ led the way from Gethsemane to Golgotha to Eternity, then said "Follow Me". He remains convinced that some of us are strong enough. That is a complement. From God Himself.

Stand Firm.

In Christ.

He Is Worthy.

Amen.

[mattfivefour]

I have read all of your replies with great interest. Thank you for your thoughtful posts. But I did promise that I would answer the question I posed, myself. I know my response here is long. But it is a complete study on the topic, the result of much prayer. May the Holy Spirit anoint you to understand as you read and may He anoint the the words so they minister not just understanding but encouragement and hope to those who have gone—and those who are still going—through trials and afflictions.

God’s Purpose in Job’s Suffering

Two questions answered

by

mattfivefour

The book of Job is probably one of the most misconstrued books in the Bible. Everybody understands the idea that Job is a good man whom God allows Satan to torment. Fewer get the idea that while God permits Job’s suffering He is in control at all times. And very few discover the reason why God permits the suffering in the first place.

I have heard many ideas why. The most common is that God wanted to prove to Satan how faithful His greatest believer was. Equally common is the view that God wanted the Bible to contain an account that would provide hope amidst suffering to those who read it. The problem with both of these views is that they are either incorrect, or incomplete. There is also a third view that God is God and He can do what He likes. We just have to accept whatever He does and have no right to question Him on it.

God did not, does not, nor ever will, need to prove anything to Satan. Satan, as is clear from Isaiah 14 set out to exalt Himself and displace God from His throne. The timing of this is uncertain but is likely to have preceded Creation, though that is by no means certain. What is certain is that by the time of Genesis 3:1 the Devil was already an enemy of God who sought to destroy God’s relationship with His beloved creation— man. As the Bible tells us, Satan had been judged and cast out of Heaven (Ezekiel 28:16; Isaiah 14:12; Luke 10:18), though not yet condemned to the Pit (Isaiah 14:15). And from Isaiah 14:12; Job 1:7; Revelation 12:12; and 1 Peter 3:8 we know he roams the earth. But in no way does God have to prove anything to Him. God is God and does not have to justify himself to anyone. Further, to use an innocent man as a pawn simply for the sake of justifying Himself is an insult to the character of God and His nature. It makes Him capricious and selfish, not caring about the very real agony that Job went through—both physically and emotionally. The Word tells us that God is good to His people (Psalm 73:1); that all His works and all His ways are perfect (Deuteronomy 32:4); and, most importantly, that God is love (1 John 4:16). None of these characteristics could be true if God could act capriciously solely to prove something to the Evil one … or to anybody else, for that matter. Selfishness and self-justification are not part of God’s character. Therefore the idea that God caused untold suffering to a good and righteous believer in order to justify Himself to Satan is false.

The second idea—that God wanted the Bible to contain an account that would sustain those who would in future suffer at some point in their lives—is at least closer to the character of God. Every word that is written in the Bible has been given by God to strengthen and build us in teaching, in correction, in instruction in right living (2 Timothy 3:16). God’s goal in this is to make us mature, complete, and fully equipped to live as befits His children who are here solely to be witnesses to his salvation through Jesus Christ. (Acts 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:17) Thus it is correct in part to say that God wanted Job’s story in the bible. But it is correct only in part. To state that this is the only reason, or even the chief reason is again to malign God and His character.

Now, it is indeed theologically sound to state that God is God and can do whatever He wills since all exists for His glory. It is also theologically sound to state that man was created for God’s own purposes and God may dispose of man in any way He desires. As His servants we may be used in whatever way our Master pleases. And, therefore, it would be theologically acceptable to state that God wanted to use Job for the benefit of all those who would come after.

Job clearly told people of his story in order to instruct them properly in the ways of God and to provide comfort to them in their own troubles. Is our God not the God of all comfort? (2 Corinthians 1:3) And is the purpose of God’s comfort to us not so that we may comfort one another with the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted? (2 Corinthians 1:4) Thus Job’s account was written (many believe by Moses) under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in order to provide comfort to us. But to say that is God’s main reason for what happened to Job is to say that somehow God’s love for us was greater than His love for Job; or, at least, that His concern for our welfare was greater than His concern for Job’s welfare. And that, quite frankly, does malign God; and it leaves open the possibility that any whom He sees as good and faithful and righteous in Christ on this earth could be called to great and undeserved suffering in order to accomplish a purpose of God. This ministers fear not faith. Our God has given us His Spirit, a Spirit that ministers not fear but power, and love, and a sound mind. (2 Timothy 1:7)

The third view is related to the second. God indeed is God. Who are we to question Him? And, for the same reasons as given against the second view, this too must be rejected. While God is God, He does nothing related to man in secret. He has given us His Word so that we may know Him, so that we may know that He is good, does good, and loves us, His highest creation, with whom He seeks to have fellowship. That is why He created us. And true love does not dispose of the focus of its love capriciously. Love never seeks her own (1 Corinthians 13:5); it is always concerned with the other not with self; with giving, not receiving.

A proper study of the Book of Job is necessary because it provides us with a better understanding of God’s character and a fuller understanding of just how He works in people’s lives. I am going to use the NASB in this discussion because while the manuscripts it uses agree totally with those used to develop the KJV as far as the book of Job is concerned, the Greek scholarship is more advanced in the NASB and thus is more accurate in its translation and, being in modern English, is much easier to understand while maintaining much of the majesty and cadence of the King James.

The action in the book begins after just five introductory verses:

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
12 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1:6-12)

At a first, or casual, reading it appears that certain facts are true. First, Satan wanders the earth observing man. Second, he can appear in God’s presence. Third, he accuses us to Him. Fourth, there is a contest between Satan and God over man. And fifth, Job was a perfect and righteous man. The first three facts are indeed true. Satan does wander the earth, he can appear before God; and he IS our accuser. (Zechariah 3:1; 1 Peter 5:8) The fourth is only true in the sense that Satan tries to pry God loose from man, and vice versa. But it is not truly a contest in that God so outstrips Satan in power that Satan can only do things that God permits. The fifth point, however, requires some discussion of the Hebrew before we can decide just how true it is or is not. Remember, things when translated are not always what they seem at first glance.

The question we need to consider as the basis for our discussion, is what is meant by the phrase "blameless and upright" found in verse 8 (and previously used in verse 1, as well) as it applies to Job? (The King James translates this phrase as "perfect and upright.") The Hebrew is capable of some leeway in translation; a fact that gives us some understanding of why God ensured Greek was the lingua franca of the Jewish world when the New Testament was written. Greek is a very precise language; far more precise than Hebrew and permitting of far more nuances and subtleties than English—a necessity to convey the great doctrinal truths of the New Testament which are really expansions and revelations of truths held in form and symbol in the Old Testament. Therefore we really need to look at the roots of the Hebrew words and how those words were used, how they were understood, thousands of years ago.

The word translated "blameless" in the NASB and "perfect" in the KJV comes from the root word תָּמַם (tamam, pronounced taw-MAM). It literally means "finished, complete, ended". In other words, something that has reached its conclusion. We find it in its root form in Job 22:3 where Job is asked “Is there any pleasure to the Almighty if you are righteous, or profit if you make your ways perfect tamam? And again in Job 31:40 where Job says "The words of Job are ended (tamam)." Tamam in both Hebrew and Arabic—both of which spring from the same root language—means "complete", "finished", "mature". (Interestingly, in modern Arabic it has morphed to mean "alright", "fine", "OK", which are, I suppose, logical extensions of something being complete or brought to a finish.)

The specific word in Job 1:1 and 1:8 is derived from tamam. It is תָּ֧ם (tam, pronounced tawm). As we have noted it is translated "upright" in the NASB and "perfect" in the KJV. Its actual meaning is "wholesome" or "morally pure". Unfortunately the dominant KJV reading of "perfect" connotes, in our understanding of the word, the idea of perfection, in other words "being without flaw". I agree that today that is exactly what "perfect” means. But it is not what tam meant. Tam meant a spiritual maturity that carried with it the manifestation of moral purity. It in no way meant "flawless". In no way was it a reference to a moral absolute. Rather, it was an existential term that observed the reality of the human condition and provided a comparison of a specified individual to others of lesser spiritual character. Thus the Bible is not telling us that Job was without flaw; but rather that he was more upright than all his fellows. And this is a very important idea to understand as we seek the answer as to why God allowed Job to suffer what he did.

Certainly Job’s three "friends" did not consider Job perfect. In fact they laid sin at his door. They assumed that what was happening to Job was a result of some hidden sin, some hypocrisy, in his life; and thus we find some 28 chapters devoted to their attacks on his character, and his responses to them.

It is not in the persistent attacks of Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite that we will find Job’s flaw, if he had one; so we can safely ignore all that they said. Just as God did. But we do need to look at Job’s answers, because there we will find two revelations— a revelation of something amiss in his character, a flaw hidden from all but God; and the revelation of God’s purpose in allowing Satan to attack him.

Job’s friends accused him of being a hypocrite. But he was not. A hypocrite is somebody who consciously tries to appear one way, but in reality is quite different. He puts on an act to cover up his real self. In fact the word "hypocrite" comes from the Greek ὑποκριτής (hupokrites, pronounced hoo-pock-rit-ACE) which means a pretender, an actor, someone who performs on a stage. But Job was no pretender. He was, as God testified, a blameless and upright man as compared to his fellows. As God said, "There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." (Job 1:8) No, if there was a flaw in Job, a failing from flawlessness before God, it was hidden … not just from other men, but from Job himself. And that is our first clue as to God’s purpose in Job’s suffering, in why a good God would allow he torment of a "perfect" man.

It is as the trials proceed, as the fire heats up, that the hidden dross begins to bubble to the surface. It actually hits the surface in chapter 29. Listen closely to Job’s words:

7 When I went out to the gate of the city, when I took my seat in the square,
8 The young men saw me and hid themselves, and the old men arose and stood.
9 The princes stopped talking and put their hands on their mouths;
10 The voice of the nobles was hushed, and their tongue stuck to their palate.
11 For when the ear heard, it called me blessed, and when the eye saw, it gave witness of me,
12 Because I delivered the poor who cried for help, and the orphan who had no helper.
13 The blessing of the one ready to perish came upon me, and I made the widow’s heart sing for joy.
14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me; my justice was like a robe and a turban.
15 I was eyes to the blind and feet to the lame.
16 I was a father to the needy, and I investigated the case which I did not know.
17 I broke the jaws of the wicked and snatched the prey from his teeth.
18 Then I thought, "I shall die in my nest, and I shall multiply my days as the sand.
19 "My root is spread out to the waters, and dew lies all night on my branch.
20 "My glory is ever new with me, and my bow is renewed in my hand."
21 To me they listened and waited, and kept silent for my counsel.
22 After my words they did not speak again, and my speech dropped on them.
23 They waited for me as for the rain, and opened their mouth as for the spring rain.
24 I smiled on them when they did not believe, and the light of my face they did not cast down.
25 I chose a way for them and sat as chief, and dwelt as a king among the troops, as one who comforted the mourners. (Job 29:7-25)

That discourse of Job’s consumes 19 verses. In those 19 verses he uses the first person personal pronoun 36 times. Count them. I, I, I, me, me, me, my, my, my. 36 references to self. And what references! Young men fled from his presence. Old men stood in respect. Princes shut their mouths. Nobles were struck dumb. He knew he was blessed of men and of God and he reveled in it.

Where is the humility? Where is the fear of God?

Notice his statements— "my righteousness … my judgment … my root … my branch … my glory … my bow … my hand … my words … my countenance." Were I not aware that this was Job speaking, I would think it was God’s voice. For these are the terms with which Almighty God speaks to man. Yet it is clear that this is exactly what Job rejoiced in, that HE himself was this important, this powerful, this great. And chapter 30 begins in the same vein with him bemoaning that he no longer has either this power or the respect of men—not even the young ones who have no status in society. He states that even they do not fear him.

Please do not misunderstand. Job did fear God in his heart and in his actions. We have God’s own word for that. He did do good to those in need—doing all that James refers to as "pure religion" (James 1:27). We have Job's words for that. And from everything I have read I am quite prepared to take Job at his word.

The problem was something of which Job was not aware. But one in which he is not alone. It is one that afflicts many moral, upright individuals who live righteously. And it is called self-righteousness. It is human nature to believe that, when you make a conscious effort to live in a morally superior fashion, somehow you are better than those who do not. After all, it is a choice and you have made the right choice, as it were. Those who choose not to, then, are morally inferior. They lack character, they lack integrity. Further, the cart drawn by the horse of self-righteousness is the idea that somehow you have ingratiated yourself to God, that somehow your behavior merits greater status in His eyes, and that now surely He must treat you with greater favor. Your very actions deserve it.

We may not like this, but it is true. And you can see it best displayed in the "holiness" movements and legalistic denominations where one’s status is consequent upon the shortness of one’s hair (if a man), the cut of one’s suit, the length of one’s dress, the way in which a woman’s hair is coiffed, etc, etc.

And that, I suggest, is plainly evident in Job’s own words. When you read the book, particularly the verses between chapters 29 and 41 it is very clear that Job believes God has done him a grave injustice because, in view of the way he has lived, he does not deserve what has happened to him.

Now for those who choose to believe that Job was not self-rightous—or those like myself who missed this point for years—the Holy Spirit has made sure to leave no doubt. Since all scripture is given by God, then all it says is important. Words, phrases, and sentences are not in the Bible to fill space or for unimportant reasons. They are all crucial to a proper understanding of what God is telling us. With that in mind Read Job 32:1.

Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Because Job was what? "Righteous in his own eyes." And that, brothers and sisters, is the plain definition of "self-righteousness". One who is sure of one's own righteousness.

None who truly fears God, none who is truly humble, is ever righteous in his or her own eyes. In fact we Christians should know better than anybody that none is righteous (Romans 3:10), and that all of our righteousnesses are as used menstrual cloths (Isaiah 64:6). Indeed we above all people should know that we have only one righteousness: the righteousness that comes by faith; that is to say, the righteousness of Christ imputed to us by faith in His finished work at Calvary.

So Job, the man who was "upright" and "morally blameless" in his conduct, at heart suffered from self-righteousness. It was deep; it did not appear in his day-to-day relationships or activities, but it did surface when the heat was turned up. And that is something we all have in common. Like the gold and silver we are sometimes compared to in the Bible, impurities are distilled by fire. As the pressure and the temperature on us increase, the hidden flaws—hidden from other men but, more importantly, hidden from us—that God in his omniscience sees and in His love wishes to remove, begin to surface. You see, once they surface they can be dealt with. We can surrender them to God and thus grow immensely in our spiritual walk. Bringing them to the surface, showing them to us, is an act of God’s love. He does not want anything to hinder our communion with Himself. Thus He will progressively bring us into circumstances in our walk to reveal those things that will hinder us in our service.

But there is something else very interesting in Job’s actions under stress. His view of himself does not just manifest itself in self righteousness but in the concomitant idea that somehow he merits something from God. Job sees God as just a more perfect version of man … more powerful, perhaps; vastly more powerful! But nonetheless a being who must answer for his actions. And so Job begins complaining against God and demanding that which he feels is his due. "I," says Job, "have done all these good things in my life and thus You owe me."

2 I will say to God, "Do not condemn me; let me know why You contend with me.
3 Is it right for You indeed to oppress, to reject the labor of Your hands, and to look favorably on the schemes of the wicked?
4 Have You eyes of flesh? Or do You see as a man sees?
5 Are Your days as the days of a mortal? Or Your years as man’s years,
6 That You should seek for my guilt and search after my sin?
7 According to Your knowledge I am indeed not guilty, yet there is no deliverance from Your hand.
8 Your hands fashioned and made me altogether, and would You destroy me?
9 Remember now, that You have made me as clay; and would You turn me into dust again?
10 Did You not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese;
11 Clothe me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews?
12 You have granted me life and lovingkindness; and Your care has preserved my spirit.
13 Yet these things You have concealed in Your heart; I know that this is within You:
14 If I sin, then You would take note of me, and would not acquit me of my guilt.
15 If I am wicked, woe to me! and if I am righteous, I dare not lift up my head. I am sated with disgrace and conscious of my misery.
16 Should my head be lifted up, You would hunt me like a lion; and again You would show Your power against me.
17 You renew Your witnesses against me and increase Your anger toward me; hardship after hardship is with me.
18 Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Would that I had died and no eye had seen me!" (Job 10:2-18)

Job not only seeks to demand answers from God, he actually holds Him at fault for his suffering. Job continues on in the same vein as he answers his friends, who have become his judges, and in Job 24 the suffering saint complains that God not only does not reward righteousness but seems indifferent to wickedness.

1 "Why are times not stored up by the Almighty, and why do those who know Him not see His days?
2 Some remove the landmarks; they seize and devour flocks.
3 They drive away the donkeys of the orphans; they take the widow’s ox for a pledge.
4 They push the needy aside from the road; the poor of the land are made to hide themselves altogether.
5 Behold, as wild donkeys in the wilderness they go forth seeking food in their activity, as bread for their children in the desert.
6 They harvest their fodder in the field and glean the vineyard of the wicked.
7 They spend the night naked, without clothing, and have no covering against the cold.
8 They are wet with the mountain rains and hug the rock for want of a shelter.
9 Others snatch the orphan from the breast, and against the poor they take a pledge.
10 They cause the poor to go about naked without clothing, and they take away the sheaves from the hungry.
11 Within the walls they produce oil; they tread wine presses but thirst.
12 From the city men groan, and the souls of the wounded cry out; yet God does not pay attention to folly.
13 Others have been with those who rebel against the light; they do not want to know its ways nor abide in its paths.
14 The murderer arises at dawn; he kills the poor and the needy, and at night he is as a thief.
15 The eye of the adulterer waits for the twilight, saying, 'No eye will see me.' And he disguises his face.
16 In the dark they dig into houses, they shut themselves up by day; they do not know the light.
17 For the morning is the same to him as thick darkness, for he is familiar with the terrors of thick darkness.
18 They are insignificant on the surface of the water; their portion is cursed on the earth. They do not turn toward the vineyards.
19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters, so does Sheol those who have sinned.
20 A mother will forget him; the worm feeds sweetly till he is no longer remembered. And wickedness will be broken like a tree.
21 He wrongs the barren woman and does no good for the widow.
22 But He drags off the valiant by His power; He rises, but no one has assurance of life.
23 He provides them with security, and they are supported; and His eyes are on their ways.
24 They are exalted a little while, then they are gone; moreover, they are brought low and like everything gathered up; even like the heads of grain they are cut off.
25 Now if it is not so, who can prove me a liar, and make my speech worthless?" (Job 24: 1-25)

Job then issues a challenge in Chapter 31, crying "Oh that I had one to hear me! Behold, here is my signature; let the Almighty answer me! And the indictment which my adversary has written, surely I would carry it on my shoulder; I would bind it to myself like a crown. I would declare to Him the number of my steps; like a prince I would approach Him." (Job 31:35-37)

Well, then. Job wants a chance to confront God? He says he will approach God in all the confidence and power of a prince? Be careful what you ask for!

Chapter 38 begins with the immortal words: "Then the LORD Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, 'Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me!'" (Job 38:1-3)

God forbid that any one of us should find ourselves face to face in confrontation with the Almighty! I cannot imagine the fear I would feel in such an instance. As the words of the song I Can Only Imagine say:

Surrounded by Your glory, what will my heart feel?
Will I dance for you Jesus or in awe of you be still?
Will I stand in your presence or to my knees will I fall?
Will I sing hallelujah, will I be able to speak at all?

I can, indeed, only imagine. But I know exactly what Job felt, for his reaction is recorded in God’s Word. For 71 terrifying verses of unanswerable demonstration of the awesome omnipotence of God, Job is bombarded with God’s questions of him. Job demanded some answers? God demands some of his own. And at the end, all Job can do is humble himself before his Creator and say “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees You; therefore I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes!” (Job 42:5-6)

Now Job knows that while he may be an exemplary man, he is yet just a man and before God no better than his fellows. Job is finally in the place he should have been all along. A place he thought he was, but wasn’t. The trial brought out the imperfection, the self-righteousness, the pleasure in his own goodness, status, and accomplishments. And once revealed, Job threw it all on God’s altar. God loved Job so much that He could not let this imperfection exist for it would always be a barrier between Job and the perfection of God’s plan for his life.

So there we have two questions answered. What was God’s purpose in Job’s suffering? And how does God work in mankind?

I pray the answers give you comfort. God is not capricious, nor is He unjust. All He does He does out of His deep and abiding love for us. Not us as a collective, but us as individuals. As we saw previously, He knows every hair on your head; they are numbered. He knows all your days before as yet one was written. Indeed, He chose you from before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4)

There is a song written by Andrae Crouch called Through It All. In it are the words, "My trials come to only make me strong." Indeed they do.

More than a hundred years ago an old saint whom the world has practically forgotten wrote a hymn. George A. Young never moved mountains or preached to thousands. He was an obscure carpenter and preacher in little backwaters of America. He lived simply, suffering great trials and afflictions at the hands of others. But while the world has forgotten him, God has not. And neither have the untold multitudes in heaven today because he led them to eternal salvation. Despite all of his service for God, he was shamefully treated by many in the world who hated his gospel message and who consequently persecuted him with venom, once even burning down the little house which he had finally been able to build to shelter his family. Yet none of this shook his faith and his trust in his Savior. Indeed, Brother Young wrote the beautiful hymn titled God Leads Us Along. All of the lyrics are of great comfort, but I especially like the first two lines of the chorus.

Some through the waters, some through the flood,
Some through the fire, but all through the blood.

All … all … ALL through the blood! In Jesus Christ we have our eternal salvation, a salvation produced by God’s unalterable love for us; a salvation secured by Christ’s inestimable sacrifice; a salvation confirmed by the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. God promises us that when we pass through the waters they will not overflow us nor will the fire burn us. (Isaiah 43:2-3) Rather the waters will show us God’s faithfulness, increasing our faith. And the fire will purify us, drawing us closer to Him. If we have faith, then we will trust God with all things, whether we understand them or not. Were we to understand, faith would not be required. But in this flesh we often cannot know, we often cannot see. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen, as the KJV translates Hebrews 11:1. The NASB renders it as "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." And from where do we obtain that assurance and conviction? By believing God’s Word. By believing that God is who He says He is and does exactly as He says He does. Faith is not sight, it is not based on what we know, but on who God is. It is a gift He gives us. But we need to use it.

So the next time black clouds gather, the wind begins to howl, the thunder and lightning flash, the storm hurls itself around you and the waves crash against your feet, remember that God’s purpose is to purge the dross, draw you closer to Him, and strengthen your faith. All that happens is meted by His hand and is evidence of His love and concern for you.

The last two lines of that chorus I just quoted?

Some through the waters, some through the flood,
Some through the fire, but all through the blood.
Some through great sorrow, but God gives a song,
In the night season and all the day long.

Remember the lesson of Job. God loves you beyond measure, and will not let anything stand between you and a closer relationship with Him. Just trust Him dear ones. He alone is faithful and true.